Wolf, Lamb and Ouroboros: A Reply to Uri Avnery by Israel Shamir 8:54am Tue Jul 22 '03 shamir@home.se Avnery's Two States idea is fully applicable everywhere, if it applicable in Palestine. print article Wolf, Lamb and Ouroboros by Israel Shamir A perfect propaganda man could make cat lick mustard, at least by pushing mustard up under cat's tail, Bertolt Brecht wrote. Avnery's last essay called The Bi-National State[1] is a similar exercise: he wants us to love and accept the Jewish state, for (he claims) the fate of Palestinians would be worse without it. Why it is better for Palestinians to be locked up in their small enclaves than to be equal citizens of the whole of Palestine? In a mental somersault, Avnery breaks a new ground in public discourse and proclaims: Jews can't live with non-Jews. The Jew and the Goy are like wolf and lamb; if you want the Wolf dwell with the Lamb, please provide a fresh lamb every day. There was, I understand, a slight difference of opinion who of the twain is a wolf, (classic Zionists clamoured the lamb skin), but Avnery leaves us in no doubt: while sojourning together, the Goy will lose to the Jew. In his own words, "In a joint state, if it were to be set up, the Jews would dominate the economy and most other aspects of the state, and try very hard to preserve that situation." Well, this is the opinion of many men in many countries. They point up Jewish dominance in Hollywood and the media, as well as in banking and finance from Moscow with its oligarchs to New York and Washington and conclude as Avnery does: the Jews can not live in one state with non-Jews, for the Jews would dominate the economy and most other aspects of the state[2]. Usually they call for transfer of Jews, too. However, until the present publication of the Avnery's ground-breaking article, this opinion was effectively banned from majority of websites and printed media. Now, the Counterpunch presented the discerned reader with the opinion, and none of the ADL gang expressed shock or dissatisfaction. Indeed, if you support Zionism you may express any opinion including that "the Jews can not live in one state with non-Jews". Avnery made a great improvement upon the old line by presenting it as benevolent care for the weak goy: 'Let them have a separate state, for otherwise Jews will dominate them'. But there is no reason to distinguish between Palestine and other lands with sizeable Jewish communities. Here is Rhodes, as Greeks said to a man who claimed he can jump very high - on the isle of Rhodes. Avnery's idea is fully applicable everywhere, if it applicable in Palestine. It should be equally applicable in the US, where a Jewish state should be created soonest so that Jews wouldn't dominate the Goyim. The Jewish State of America (the JSA) does not have to be contiguous: it can use the pattern established by Jews for the Goyim in Palestine. However, the citizens of the JSA should not be allowed to vote in the USA, or influence its discourse, or hold property in the USA, in full compliance with Avnery's ideas on Palestine. Their property outside the boundaries can be dealt with the same way the Jewish state in Palestine dealt with Gentile property. It will solve the main problem on the way to democracy in Palestine presented by Avnery, namely: "American Jewry has immense political, economic and media might, and they will not lose it for many years to come". The might of American Jewry contained within the limits of the JSA would not matter much for the rest of the world. It will solve the second problem presented by Avnery: "the Arabs are becoming more and more the bogyman of the Western world", for with the Jews safely contained in the JSA, the USA will pay attention to its own interests and will become the best friend of the Arabs. If that doesn't suffice, Jewish states can be created lsewhere too: the Jewish state of France, the Jewish state of Russia, the Jewish state of Germany, for Avnery's approach to Palestine contains a universal message. (Germans actually tried to create a Jewish state in Poland, probably for the same altruistic reasons.) And then, we will be able to undo the Jewish state in Palestine. Extreme Jewish nationalists from the settlements will trek back home to Brooklyn (surely an integral part of the JSA), while millions of ordinary dwellers of Palestine, of Jewish or other origin, will be able to live together in peace. [1] http://www.counterpunch.org/avnery07152003.html [2] http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/ley3.htm [3] http://sm.org/exegesis [4] http://www.g0lem.net/PHP/phpnuke/modules.html?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=15 www.israelshamir.net add your comments Source file

shamir the great by goldberg 4:22am Wed Jul 23 '03 print comment ..so we hear from the great shamir,blessed are we.izzie( may i call you izzie) you put your great talent out there for a people who would cut your balls off for a sheckel that is if you have any?...be as it may ,i think it is a good idea to let the arabs live in israel,as long as it is in peace. they can have the their own elected house of reps, local councils, you can have no concern, the jews will be more then fair, hell that is way more freedom then any of the arab countrys give their people now.RIGHT. now if thats not good enough for your murdering friends i suggest you pack them up and dont forget to take the 1000 or so bleeding heart jews, and your self and dont forget mr.putz adam shapiro, take the whole lot, kit and kaboodle and re-locate to the 22 arab nations, or the other 50 moslem dumps,or to france,england,or anywere for that matter and leave israel alone for petes sake.how is it ? izzie it eats your heart out to see the jews with their own land, after all the years of suffering....shame on you add your comments

to goldberg by dumbstruck 4:39am Wed Jul 23 '03 print comment where did you first learn of that caricature image of Arabs who will cut 'Jewish balls for a sheckle'? in the Synegouge, in a pubic shcool system (s.s)where on earth does a grown up person regurgitates this foolish stereotype in a pubic forum? add your comments

-for nothing by goldberg 5:53pm Wed Jul 23 '03 print comment ...hell...they would do it for nothing, how many innocents have they killed in cold blood, do you have your head in a sand dune? add your comments

To goldberg- by straight forward math problem 7:28pm Wed Jul 23 '03 print comment a tiny fraction of the casualty list the Jews have inflicted? add your comments

here we go again by goldberg 7:44pm Wed Jul 23 '03 print comment ..here we go again...counting numbers...in this case we are talking about cold blooded murder....not defense against terrorists..if shamir would walk into any arab town by himself,no ism cover,he would have a knife in his back within an hour, for no other reason other then he is a jew. add your comments

goldberg, you would make 'em very proud by >M 9:38pm Wed Jul 23 '03 print comment once again you are projecting your sociopathic fantasies on innocent natives. They have been more than accomodating in their hospitality to you who has as much respect for human lives as the Naztional Socialist counterparts! btw, the zionist founding fathers had a socialist inclination and you are the perfect example of nationalism that is the cornerstone of Zionism. Zionism is Naztionlism with a some socialism in the mix to appease the progressive elements of society... add your comments

goldberg Remove those Shackles from that grip by asap. 10:35pm Wed Jul 23 '03 print comment The Arabs do not kill you because you are a Jew just as you don't kill em because you are a jew. You occupy their land, and they yearn for LIBERATION add your comments

A Single Non-National State by Peter Kropotkin 10:53pm Wed Jul 23 '03 print comment For starters, I personally am not for a bi-national state. I am for a single non-national state. Fuck all Nationalisms, and that includes Zionism and Palestinian Nationalism. But...this whole Zionism = Nazism thing is getting a little boring. Zionism is not Nazism. Sorry, that is just the way it is. This has nothing to do with which is worse than the other, this has to do with the fact that Zionism is a political and socio-cultural entity unto itself that must be understood in its own socio-historical context. The left and the right both have a bad habit of constantly trying to pigeonhole everything that comes their way with pat and overworn designations. Everything the left doesn't like is Nazi or a Fascist and Everything the right doesn't like is commie, liberal or left-fascist (whatever the fuck that is). All this does is obscure the important differences that give us the ability to discern the particular socio-cultural and historical factors that really make up the object of our critique. Instead we end up fighting our own projections and giving the other side an easy out. "We are obviously not that, so your whole argument must be faulty." and then they go their way, ignoring the whole critique, much of which could have been useful. add your comments

Godwin's Law on the use of Nazi and Hitler by You're a Nazi!!! 8:30am Thu Jul 24 '03 print comment Godwin's Law Godwin's Law prov. [Usenet] "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. However there is also a widely- recognized codicil that any intentional triggering of Godwin's Law in order to invoke its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful. http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms/g/Godwin_s_Law.html info.astrian.net/jargon/terms/g/Godwin_s... add your comments